This is an exceptionally fascinating and useful discussion. It is shared here because a.) it has extremely useful, totally actionable science for a matter about which I am deciding to take more proactive interest: years and years and years — the word is, quite literally, decades — of chronic, constant, unvarying, attitude-deforming sleep-deprivation; and b.) it covers some of my favorite subjects in the field of mind-science; and c.) this discussion between these two great minds will surely be of great personal benefit to you, the readers of this blog, because if you come here for any reason, you might be predicted to have a more-than-usual interest in mind and its material and immaterial aspects.
I will share a more personal message on this subject here on this blog in a few days. It is a series of quick reflections on the matter of sleep deprivation as I have experienced it after several decades of institutional Zen training. So late, recently having come to the conclusion — actually about three years ago, already, but can only perhaps begin to act on it now, or SOON — that the influence of this training (“Wake up!”) has allowed the “normalization” of a very harmful life-habit: the absolutely chronic lack of sleep (usually about 5 hours per night, and NO sleep-ins EVER, 7 days per week, 365 days per year) which leads to an increased irritability and struggle to maintain focus. Even the periods of daily meditation are muddier than they should be, more often, because the machine has simply not been treated with the proper respect.
Bull shit in, bullshit out. That needs to change.
Enjoy this conversation — may it have a beneficial effect on your own practice, and therefore your relationships with others.